Sarah Luppen Fowler is Senior Deputy Normal Counsel at SAG-AFTRA, the nationwide labor union representing roughly 160,000 members of the movie, tv, information, music, and radio industries. She can be an Adjunct Professor of Regulation at Vanderbilt Regulation College and the College of Georgia College of Regulation, the place she teaches a course in regards to the intersection of leisure and labor legislation. She is a graduate of Vanderbilt Regulation College.
JSEL’s Alec Winshel sat down with Ms. Fowler to debate her work at SAG-AFTRA, together with her management within the latest labor strike, and her authorized profession spanning a number of legislation corporations.
Alec Winshel: Are you able to begin by telling us what your present function [as Senior Deputy General Counsel] appears like and the way your duties have modified over the course of your time with SAG-AFTRA?
Sarah Luppen Fowler: As Senior Deputy Normal Counsel, I report on to our basic counsel. I’m primarily tasked with lots of division administration. I additionally do a few of your extra typical GC-type work by interfacing with our Folks and Tradition division and dealing with them on inside worker and inside union issues—a few of our employees are themselves unionized, so I act as administration in these negotiations with these unions. I additionally will handle with outdoors counsel any bigger items, so any litigations which are filed in opposition to SAG-AFTRA: I’ll normally be the purpose particular person with outdoors counsel on these issues. Any bigger issues we’re bringing, these shall be ones that I’ll be level on. And, then, usually approving any main coverage choices and being a part of these discussions from the authorized perspective.
Along with that, I headed up the authorized aspect of our strike this previous summer time, in order that added a brand new arrow to my quiver. Now, I’m kind of a ‘strike particular person.’ Every time now we have negotiations that aren’t notably going the way in which our membership would really like, we do now be sure that we’re all the time getting ready for strike and so I’ll become involved at that time and assist them really feel like they’re ready to strike if we find yourself having to take that step.
Winshel: Are you able to speak about that transition course of—I imagine it had been a long time since SAG-AFTRA had struck—so chances are you’ll not have had folks within the group that you could possibly study from as you have been placing it collectively?
Fowler: No one was round anymore from the final time we struck that contract. We’ve had a few strikes extra just lately, however not beneath TV/Theatrical settlement, in order that they weren’t these nationwide, big strikes that shut down all the trade.
We had just a few folks and some fashions for among the paperwork that we would want, however simply logistically talking, that was one thing we realized on the fly. We have been constructing the airplane within the air.
It was tremendous thrilling and tremendous aggravating, however actually rewarding and a enjoyable solution to train all of the issues that you just study as a lawyer: considering shortly in your toes and suppose virtually and downside resolve and doing it all of sudden with quite a bit on the road. It was very thrilling, however one thing that lent itself to lawyer management and was a terrific expertise.
Winshel: I wish to ask a pair questions in regards to the trike. There have been lots of headlines in regards to the success that got here out of these negotiations about compensation, writers’ room measurement, and AI. Are there different wins that you just bought as a company that you just’d like to spotlight?
Fowler: One factor that, in hindsight, we’ll look again on and see as an enormous success was SAG-AFTRA’s means to interrupt what’s generally known as sample bargaining. Within the trade, you’ve the Author’s Guild, the Director’s Guild, SAG-AFTRA, IATSE. Whoever goes first will set the desk, after which every guild that comes after that’s anticipating to simply accept that sample and associate with what the primary guild who negotiates agrees to. That may be useful however oftentimes is kind of limiting as a result of every guild could be very totally different and their membership is totally different they usually have totally different wants and totally different necessities based mostly on what they’re doing to place the film or TV present collectively.
What we have been in a position to do is break that in some important methods this time. SAG-AFTRA wanted extra compensation as a result of our members usually tend to be paid at scale than the writers and administrators are, so we wanted that minimal scale to be raised much more following a number of years of document inflation than, perhaps, the writers and administrators wanted. That was an enormous factor.
Additionally, altering the construction of how residuals could be paid in streaming and getting that to some extent the place our members felt comfy was totally different. It’s not that it’s higher or worse; it’s what made our members really feel most comfy with our cost could be made going ahead. That’s big. That signifies that the voice that we convey to the desk is being heard and the businesses can not say, “Nicely, the writers stated this was okay, so you could take it.” No. They should hearken to our views. It’s distinctive and it’s totally different and we could have a purpose why what we want is totally different than the others. That’s actually useful and we’ll put that to the check as IATSE is negotiating proper now. They’ve totally different wants and a singular voice and perspective on what that’s. We’ll see in the event that they’re in a position to break by way of that in these negotiations.
Winshel: There are such a lot of totally different guilds concerned within the trade which have totally different units of wants. SAG-AFTRA alone has greater than 150,000 members that work in several components of the trade. How do you signify so many alternative folks without delay?
Fowler: We’ve lots of employees who’re wonderful, and who’re material consultants of their numerous fields. That’s one factor, and possibly a very powerful factor.
We’re an enormous union. We’d like lots of people serving that union, and wonderful individuals who know that specific subset: whether or not its music and sound recordings, whether or not its broadcasters, native stations, DJs. We’ve consultants in all of these areas who can service these people. We’ve a particular background actor division. All of these issues are actually necessary. You’re proper—they do have very totally different day-to-day lives within the trade.
However, proper now, AI impacts all of our members considerably. We additionally see these themes like AI, truthful compensation that actually have an effect on everybody. We guarantee that all of us are consultants in that. We’re all consultants in AI proper now as a result of it’s affecting each certainly one of our members.
Winshel: I’m inquisitive about what the way forward for the unions appears like in an leisure trade that’s more and more fragmented throughout Twitch streamers, upstart TikTokers, or run-and-gun YouTube productions. What’s the power of the union and the construction of the union appear like sooner or later?
Fowler: I’m positive there are of us on the market who would possibly take a unfavorable view however, from what I’m seeing, union are having increasingly more impression because the trade, in some methods, fragments and, in some methods, will get extra vertically aligned as much less gamers survive within the trade.
What we’re seeing is that this youthful technology who’s on YouTube, on TikTok, who’s an influencer and who actually imagine in collective motion. They wish to really feel protected and valued of their chosen occupation. They’re seeing that unions are the way in which that they’ll obtain that greatest as a result of they’re only one tiny a part of this big ecosystem. They don’t have leverage alone. If they arrive collectively in a collective, then they do.
I feel that persons are seeing increasingly more worth in unions. We’re getting increasingly more leverage and traction with these youthful teams of people that actually see the profit and are becoming a member of.
Winshel: I’d love to listen to about your profession earlier than you bought to SAG-AFTRA. You labored at just a few legislation corporations earlier than your present group. Are you able to speak about these roles, and the way you determined to maneuver from group to group?
Fowler: I began in your conventional Large Regulation: I used to be at Simpson Thatcher & Barlett in Los Angeles of their litigation division. I graduated in 2008, so for individuals who can join these dots, that was once we had the Nice Recession. Not a good time to graduate legislation faculty. There have been big legislation corporations and banks failing. That panorama formed the start of my profession as a result of lots of what I used to be doing as a younger lawyer was engaged on the fallout from these financial institution failures and representing boards of administrators and the CEO in these actions associated to their having to shut. I didn’t even actually perceive what a mortgage was! I had gone straight from faculty to legislation faculty to Large Regulation. It actually crystalized for me that, whereas the legislation is essential, equally necessary is knowing the info of the case and the trade that your consumer works in and understanding their perspective and choices. It was fascinating to speak to the in-house individuals who we represented and that planted the seed for me that I wished to be a kind of individuals who have been a part of the choice making on the outset with the enterprise folks. You may make such a distinction as a lawyer by being a part of that dialog on the entrance finish, as a substitute of simply coming in on the again finish, which is what litigation is.
That was intense however I met the most effective attorneys I do know in that job: wonderful attorneys which are mentors to this present day. I felt like I realized what it was to be an excellent legal professional and an excellent litigator there. I actually valued that have. However, I knew I didn’t wish to be a companion at an enormous legislation agency. After 5 years, I seemed to go extra on the leisure aspect.
I went to a brand-new leisure litigation boutique. I used to be their first rent. They primarily targeted on representing expertise in proper of privateness and proper of publicity litigation, so defending expertise from unauthorized makes use of of their identify and picture in business advertisements. That’s what began me on my path in the direction of SAG-AFTRA. It’s been very helpful now with AI to have this background within the misuse of somebody’s identify and picture.
The factor that actually got here to spotlight my profession there was that we additionally had a consumer, Hulk Hogan, who was suing Gawker Media on the time for an unauthorized posting of a surreptitiously recorded intercourse tape of him along with his greatest buddy’s spouse. That case could possibly be an entire class. It was actually fascinating to work on that at the moment: it was among the starting of us as a society making an attempt to navigate the place these line have been. What’s information? What will get the protections of stories? What’s leisure? What’s an invasion of privateness on this period the place we’re placing a lot on-line? How do these issues meet collectively? It was an intense case to have such a brand-new, small agency engaged on it. I realized quite a bit about simply taking a case soup-to-nuts and gained lots of confidence in myself as an legal professional. At a small agency, you’re actually accountable for the work product and that was useful to me as an legal professional to achieve the arrogance and talent to try this and to really feel assured within the ultimate product being mine.
Then, I took a break. I bought married. I began networking to see how I may go in-house. Fortunately, I’d been concerned within the LA County Bar Affiliation as a younger lawyer and a pacesetter. I’d been on the Board of Trustees with Duncan Crabtree-Eire who, on the time, was SAG-AFTRA’s Normal Counsel. I reached out to him to see what subsequent steps could be for me. He stated, “It is best to come work for me. You’ve been representing expertise one particular person at a time, and you’ll come work for me and signify 160,000 folks within the leisure trade each single day and make fairly a distinction.” He was very convincing. That’s what I did! I went in-house with SAG-AFTRA and I’ve been there ever since.
Winshel: You talked about mentors. Are you able to discuss extra about what the function of mentorship had been for you on each side of that dynamic?
Fowler: For me, having mentors is what’s made me an excellent lawyer. I realized quite a bit in legislation faculty and I don’t imply to discredit that, but it surely’s the one-on-one mentor relationship within the authorized area that linked the dots. Having individuals who I noticed have been wonderful of their area, after which attaching myself to them and studying from them and speaking to them and listening to their thought course of. Brilliance isn’t a direct factor as a lawyer. It’s a must to discuss it out. Being there as they talked it out actually helped me develop my very own inside thought course of. That’s one factor.
As well as, mentors simply make it for enjoyable. In case you have somebody who you admire, and who loves what they do they usually’re actually good at it, there’s nothing like that. That’s what’s enjoyable about exhibiting up on the job each day. They get everybody excited. It’s a workforce mentality. We’re all studying. We’re all celebrating the wins. We’re all part of the method. It stored me practising. Sadly, lots of younger attorneys don’t discover that they usually depart the apply too early.
I attempt to pay it ahead. It made me fairly good at what I do, and so I attempt to do the identical for attorneys who come up beneath me. We discuss in regards to the technique and why I feel what I feel. I guarantee that they really feel comfy telling me what they suppose, to allow them to begin growing their very own voice and their very own thought course of. It’s an extremely necessary a part of the apply.
Winshel: I wish to take it again to the start. You graduated from Vanderbilt Regulation. Are you able to speak about what actions dominated your time in legislation faculty and what excited you probably the most throughout that interval?
Fowler: I used to be actually concerned in mock trial and moot courtroom. That was one thing I actually favored. I did mock trial in highschool. I got here again to that and located that was the place my strengths have been in legislation faculty. I wished to search out ways in which I may develop that confidence within the apply and that was the place I discovered it: getting on my toes and presenting. These have been issues that I used to be in a position to shine in and actually loved, in order that’s what I targeted on. Nicely, I targeted on class, principally, however outdoors of sophistication I targeted on these two actions. I do suppose they helped me get that first job.
Winshel: What are the opposite distinctive components of legislation faculty that don’t present up within the apply that we, as college students, can worth extra whereas we’re right here?
Fowler: Networking. I used to be at Vanderbilt after which got here to Los Angeles. Only a few folks from Vanderbilt go the West Coast; it’s simply not a typical path. I instantly realized, “Oh no… all these individuals who went to UCLA and USC have this complete community already in-built.” I felt like I didn’t know something about what was happening within the apply in LA. That felt very limiting, and that’s why I instantly bought concerned within the LA County Bar Affiliation. I wanted to construct a community that wasn’t already in-built for me. That turned out rather well.
Now, the Vanderbilt group from my class has rekindled as a result of everyone seems to be now at this degree the place we do have extra affect nationally, and also you don’t need to be so regionally linked in your area. I’ve an excellent buddy who’s a terrific labor lawyer on the administration aspect, and he or she’s out of Chicago, and we run into one another on a regular basis now.
Cement your community now as a result of they actually come in useful in the beginning of your apply, and afterward. It’s good to know folks. You’re attending to know one another now. Don’t simply know the folks in your group. You should know everyone; you don’t know precisely the place your profession goes to take you. I didn’t know I used to be going to be a labor lawyer after I was in legislation faculty. That’s one thing that folks don’t all the time take into consideration.
Winshel: One thing I hear from individuals who graduated fifteen years in the past, in comparison with now, is that there are bigger leisure communities on campuses right this moment. How can college students reap the benefits of the rise of leisure legislation?
Fowler: Vanderbilt was early to the leisure area. After I was there, they did have a journal of leisure and expertise legislation and there have been some lessons that targeted on leisure. In IP lessons, they might speak about leisure in that context. That was nice. I do suppose that’s as a result of they’re positioned in Nashville and there’s an enormous music trade there.
I used to be shocked by how many individuals wished to come back and take a category that I educate on the College of Georgia about leisure and labor legislation. I noticed that Atlanta, additionally, has develop into this huge hub of leisure in each music and movie/tv. I that the trade isn’t as targeted simply in LA and New York; it has moved throughout the nation. That has meant extra curiosity within the area and I feel that’s actually thrilling. Additionally, with COVID and everybody with the ability to work remotely, no person feels restricted by geography. I feel that’s thrilling it: that opens everybody as much as extra expertise and extra understanding of the trade, not simply restricted to these of us which are loopy sufficient to maneuver to New York or LA proper after legislation faculty.
This dialog has been flippantly edited for readability and size.
